RedOne/Premiere/DPX AE/Print

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RedOne/Premiere/DPX AE/Print

Postby K_rrusel on 11/12/2010, 10:42 am

Hi... I am working in a short-film shot with RedOne... This is my first time working with R3D and DPX for VFX and print and after reading a lot around the net I am getting even more confused....
After Editing in Premiere I open the Pr Project in After Effects just to export the R3D clips I need for VFX as DPX. As Mark Christiansen explain in this article:
http://provideocoalition.com/index.php/mchristiansen/story/tip_losslessly_convert_r3d_to_an_image_sequence/
I change the Red Settings to PDLog985 and RedSpace and -2 exposure before export as DPX Over Range (I tried to export as Standard but the resulted DPX was too overbright to work)

Once I have my DPX, I import it in a 32bpc project... Change Cineon Settings in Interpret Footage to Over Range... apply Cineon Converter to LogtoLin (Highlight Rolloff to 0) and work in my comp... the DPX looks very nice, a little more contrasted but very nice to work....
When I finish, I create an 'Out Comp' where I apply the Cineon Converter to LintoLog... Send it to Render Queue and export as DPX Over Range...

Is all this correct? Should I export as Full Range instead of Over Range?? Is ok to work without a Working Space as Pete O´Connell suggest in his article 'Cineon, what they are...' in Creative Cow?

Once I had all my VFX ready I want to change the R3D for the DPX in Premiere and open the Pr Project in After Effects to export everything as DPX for print... but at this point I suppose I have to change all the R3D settings to PDLog985 and RedSpace as I did before with the VFX shots... and again... should I export as Full Range, Over Range, Standard...?? ...we´ll be grading in Mistika, and they just asked for LogDPX.. but which one is the best option?? ...

I hope you can help me guys... I changed so many times my mind that I don´t know what to do...

Thanx all...
K_rrusel
 
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Re: RedOne/Premiere/DPX AE/Print

Postby K_rrusel on 11/21/2010, 9:37 am

Anybody knows what I´m talking about.......?????
:| :| :|
K_rrusel
 
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Re: RedOne/Premiere/DPX AE/Print

Postby Pempel on 11/22/2010, 3:09 am

Yes, I know what you are talking about. ;) Although I'm not very familiar with the RED workflow in Premiere and AE, it seems you are doing fine.
If you are creating cineon dpx before starting your vfx in AE, you just have to interpret your footage in AE using the proper values (and a log-capable monitoring) when doing your actual vfx work. From what I've heard, you can stay in that color range throughout the process if using cineon dpx. For rendering out, apply the same numbers in the color management tab for export.
Another method, beside yours, is to only apply the cineon logtolin to an adjustment layer on top of your comp to view your work in proper color space of your monitor (LUT). Then shut it of before export. But I do not know for sure if this is a appropriate workflow and it seems outdated, because AE is capable of displaying log in a proper manner using the Working Space. But all your footage you bring into the comp has to be log 32 bit... or converted to this beforehand.

The overange setting makes perfect sense in my opinion as RED files can be very low contrasty. If the picture is fine for you and your vfx, go for it. But you might wanna talk to the post-house, which handles color grading if they insist on a flat, normal range image. Actually they should coordinate these settings to their demands. Also, ask the DP and/or the producer. If they do not care, go for it.
For the rest of the project, stay in the same range. So apply a overange log to all of your r3d's when converting to dpx. So, the post house won't get a mix of color spaces to work with.
You may want to note the color space and changes when you deliver the files for post house and printer!

Good luck!
Pempel
 
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Re: RedOne/Premiere/DPX AE/Print

Postby K_rrusel on 11/22/2010, 1:17 pm

Hi Pempel... thanx a lot for your answer.... I really appreciate it...
I was today at the post house checking a couple of shots and everythink looked fine (maybe I should say not bad) except for the scopes... It looks like we lost some info in the brightest and darkest areas... they are completely cut-out... The technician said we can work with it but would be better to get more range, of course... we compare the footage with other Red Project and the scopes info were richest than our...
I am thinking now were could the problem be... maybe in the export settings?? should it be Full Range?? I told them about this settings in AE export but they didnt really know about it... ...

Thanx a lot again for your help.....!!! ;)
K_rrusel
 
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Re: RedOne/Premiere/DPX AE/Print

Postby Pempel on 11/23/2010, 7:03 am

Hey K_rrusel,

glad it worked out for yo so far!!

Yes, it sounds like you lost some latitude informtaion on the way... This could have a lot of causes. Maybe you just missed some checkbox-thing while preparing the render queue in AE (like you mentioned, try the Full Range, be sure to chek "log conversion").
There are some good advices on the net how to emulate the log curves in AE wihle exporting. Maybe your numbers do not suit your files... there is a Sony whitepaper around for their S-log curve conversion to cineon log... maybe use these numbers for your cineon seittings in AE render queue. Check, if you see better results with a manual set whitepoint. Be sure you don't have accidentially rendered out linear files... I know this can happen (although they have log parameters)... I don't know why and how, but Ive heard of it ;)
Another option could be to use the color-profile Effect instead of the cineon lintolog and emulate a filmstock colorrange (try Kodak 5205 or 5218) and in the export settings do the log conversion (cineon management tab)... seems like a little try and error work for you ;)
Sorry, if I couldn't help to much... I hope I didn't confuse you even more;)

Again good luck!!
Pempel
 
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Re: RedOne/Premiere/DPX AE/Print

Postby Pempel on 11/23/2010, 7:05 am

I forgot to mention:

try to get hold of a scope for a day, or so. I love using the blackmagic Ultra Scope. You save a lot of running to the post house for checking!

Best regards!
Pempel
 
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Re: RedOne/Premiere/DPX AE/Print

Postby K_rrusel on 11/25/2010, 9:57 am

Hi Pempel... sorry I didn't answer before... been very busy last days....

Do I need to check the 'log conversion' option even if the file is already Log (RedLog or PDLog) before I export??

One more thing... I realized that if I have a Color Space applied to the project there is some influence in the generated DPX... is that normal??

Thanx again....
K_rrusel
 
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Re: RedOne/Premiere/DPX AE/Print

Postby Pempel on 11/26/2010, 5:49 am

Hey, no problem!

I'm not sure, how AE handles the log info while working with dpx. So maybe you should compare both renders (with convert to log checked, and one without) on a scope.
If you apply a Color Space, which emulates Filmstock for example, it will affect your dpx files when you render this out. If you only want to have it as a LUT to see what's the result when it comes to a print, you can deactivate the color space before rendering and I think it won't affect the dpx.
And be aware: AE can handle and generate linear dpx files, too. So maybe you have made a step in your conversions which made them linear by accident? Which would explain the flat courves you mentioned in the post house... sort of ;)

This dpx AE thing is quite confusing for me too ;) I hope I could give you some help... otherwise, I appologize for any confusion! ;)

Greetings!
Pempel
 
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Re: RedOne/Premiere/DPX AE/Print

Postby Rob Neal on 11/26/2010, 7:37 am

Pempel wrote:try to get hold of a scope for a day, or so. I love using the blackmagic Ultra Scope. You save a lot of running to the post house for checking!

Is the software scope in Premiere not up to the mark then?
"Experience is what you have after you've forgotten their name. - Milton Berle"


http://www.robneal.co.uk
Rob Neal
 
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Re: RedOne/Premiere/DPX AE/Print

Postby Pempel on 11/26/2010, 9:27 am

Problably it is. But I haven't worked with (and relied on) it yet. I was pretty pleased with the Ulltra Scope so far. And maybe it is good to have a second reference beside AE...
No infrigments on the AE scope, though! ;)
Pempel
 
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