Jet integration

Post unfinished videos and tests

Jet integration

Postby dogdayfear on 01/12/2016, 3:55 pm

Hi all!

After following with decent results the 144 - > Flight Control tutorial, I have tried to apply it to one of my videos.

Here is the result: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmCX0hzTYBU

Need to know how can I improve it. Everytime I see it seems so artificial for me, so I would like to make it more realistic.

What do you suggest? All comments are welcome.

Thanks in advance.
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Re: Jet integration

Postby Guitarboy2828 on 01/12/2016, 11:03 pm

I think it looks cool. The lighting could probably use some work. If you look at the car in front of you, there is a super bright specular and the shadow of the cars (and trees) is very hard. Your plane shadow is soft and directly below it.

The sheep on the road are awesome! :D
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Re: Jet integration

Postby plae57 on 01/13/2016, 5:20 am

Good job. Here are some things I noticed (many nit-picking). The lighting doesn't match the sun in the real scene. This makes the shadows appear in the wrong place, and it is way too small to be cast by that plane. You need motion blur. to both the plane and the shadow. Remember, there wil be hase in the air between you and the plane so You might want to add a little atmosphere to simulate that. You could also distort the shadow with a displacement map so it matches the ground. The grain of the videos do not match (nor does the focus). The plane does not seem to be going the appropriate speed for landing. It is much too fast. You tube has several videos of planes landing over a crowd. Use these as a reference. And the sound does not match the position of the plane.

All and all good job. The more smaller things you add, the tiny details, make vfx look more realistic. I might even add a flock of birds fleeing from a tree as the plane passes. A while back I learned from a foley artist that he turns off all the sound in a clip then writes down all the things he thinks he would hear. then he makes those sounds. You can apply that to VFX. Look at the video and think about all the things you could see. Then add them.
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Re: Jet integration

Postby dogdayfear on 01/13/2016, 6:00 am

Guitarboy2828 wrote:I think it looks cool. The lighting could probably use some work. If you look at the car in front of you, there is a super bright specular and the shadow of the cars (and trees) is very hard. Your plane shadow is soft and directly below it.

The sheep on the road are awesome! :D


Thanks for your comment. Yes, im not very happy with the lights, but I didnt figure out how to correct them. I added the lights trying to simulate the scene lightning. I will re do the job considering the tree shadows and the specular of the car.

Sheeps are not included in Element 3D !!!! They are real. :D :D :D :D


plae57 wrote:Good job. Here are some things I noticed (many nit-picking). The lighting doesn't match the sun in the real scene. This makes the shadows appear in the wrong place, and it is way too small to be cast by that plane. You need motion blur. to both the plane and the shadow. Remember, there wil be hase in the air between you and the plane so You might want to add a little atmosphere to simulate that. You could also distort the shadow with a displacement map so it matches the ground. The grain of the videos do not match (nor does the focus). The plane does not seem to be going the appropriate speed for landing. It is much too fast. You tube has several videos of planes landing over a crowd. Use these as a reference. And the sound does not match the position of the plane.

All and all good job. The more smaller things you add, the tiny details, make vfx look more realistic. I might even add a flock of birds fleeing from a tree as the plane passes. A while back I learned from a foley artist that he turns off all the sound in a clip then writes down all the things he thinks he would hear. then he makes those sounds. You can apply that to VFX. Look at the video and think about all the things you could see. Then add them.



Thanks for all the details. Dont understand about motion blur for the plane and the shadow. I added it in previous tests and it looks more unreal. All objects in scene are well focused, so blurring the jet looks pretty bad.

About the shadow of the plane shadow ... its a pain. Its created in conjunction with the jet. Element object contains a jet and a plane to cast shadows. Plane is perfect parallel with the jet, but in the video, the road is not perfect parallel with the jet, so the plane has to be rotated. And I cant achieve a good result. Dont know how to do it. I will continue testing.

I dont know if the plane is going to land. Just is flying very low. If I see the video I think speed is not bad. Do you really see it very fast?

I added to the short video the final audio of my voice, telling something like "Oh my god". I will consider adding more things, but first of all I have to solve the most importants problems about lightning and shadows.

Thanks a lot for your comments.
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Re: Jet integration

Postby plae57 on 01/13/2016, 8:54 am

If you added motion blur and it looked worse, perhaps you added too much, or the settings for the motion blur were wrong. Or you may just prefer no motion blur. It is your project so do what you like.

Anyway, while e3d may have casted the shadow, it is still wrong because your "sun" is not set up correctly. Look at the direction of the shadows on the trees and the car, then look at your shadow. Different directions. That is impossible in real life, and our minds know that so it makes the video look fake. Also, you need to feather the shadow (again because your sun is wrong) Someone, I think maybe Farmfield, has a post about how shadows are created and their different parts. It was a really good reference. As for the speed, I think it was fast. Again, it's your composition do what you think looks best not what I think.

I think key to creating a good VFX shot is having good reference videos. See what it looks like in real life, then compare.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCIJ0F62og4 is a good example. This example is a very sunny day, much like yours, but look how diffused the shadow is.

What you have is a great start, and probably good enough for some indie films. But if you are going to realism, then you have to do the details.
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Re: Jet integration

Postby dogdayfear on 01/14/2016, 7:20 am

Really stuck with the lightning. Sun light is supposed to come from top right as seen because of the car and tree shadows, isnt it?

I have tried to recreate it. Do you think now shadows are more correct or more fake?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPYwYCakaVg

Thanks again, men.
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Re: Jet integration

Postby plae57 on 01/14/2016, 10:29 am

DELETE MEEEEEE.png
You have to move the light that is casting the shadow because it is in the wrong place. Look at the shadows. The plane shadow should be trailing the plane by quite a bit with a path directly under the plane. And I would still diffuse the plane's shadow a bit to soften it up. And the plane shadow would be larger than the plane. Probably by of factor of 25-50% (that's a guess for the size). You can also do all of this by moving the "sun" further away from the plane.

Stop at a frame where the plane is casting a shadow and move the light around until the shadows match the trees and the cars in position and direction. Once you have found the sweet spot, either move the light further away, or use the properties to change the strength and diffusion of the shadow.
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Re: Jet integration

Postby FX-VFX on 01/14/2016, 11:44 am

Surprised no one mentioned ambient occlusion. That'll make the plane look a lot more realistic, if you already have it, then it needs to be more intense and have a slightly bigger radius, but from what I can see there isn't any.
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Re: Jet integration

Postby ukilledkenny7 on 01/14/2016, 1:09 pm

I really think motion blur would benefit the realism of the image. To me, the plane just looks overly clean compared to the rest of the image. Can you add grain to it possibly? And maybe again consider the motion blur.
Maybe a bit of contrast so it better matches the sunny day. Unfortunately, the ambient occlusion gives it the appearance of really soft shadows which would look right in a cloudy day but not in the sunny day that is your footage. So not sure as I haven't touched E3D in a while, but I'd see if there's a way to make the shadows look harsher from the ambient occlusion.

The latest test you posted though seems to be looking pretty good. You're deff on the right track.
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Re: Jet integration

Postby FX-VFX on 01/14/2016, 5:00 pm

ukilledkenny7 wrote:I really think motion blur would benefit the realism of the image. To me, the plane just looks overly clean compared to the rest of the image. Can you add grain to it possibly? And maybe again consider the motion blur.
Maybe a bit of contrast so it better matches the sunny day. Unfortunately, the ambient occlusion gives it the appearance of really soft shadows which would look right in a cloudy day but not in the sunny day that is your footage. So not sure as I haven't touched E3D in a while, but I'd see if there's a way to make the shadows look harsher from the ambient occlusion.

The latest test you posted though seems to be looking pretty good. You're deff on the right track.


Ambient Occlusion is mostly used for making shadows from the mesh of the object. So in between the wing and the body it would make sense for there to be shadows there, that's what ambient occlusion does, and then you can make it as intense as you want with as big of a radius as you want, so I don't really see how it gives gives the illusion of soft shadows. I've never had a situation where ambient occlusion looked bad in my scene actually, it may be like a planet and it doesn't really do anything, but it's never taken away from the scene. But I agree motion blur should make it look a lot better.
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Re: Jet integration

Postby dogdayfear on 01/15/2016, 12:02 pm

Thank you all guys for your comments. Im trying to redo the scene following your suggestions.

I find some things that I didnt view and Im trying to correct them. Model seems unreal to me too and dont know why. I will try to test motion blur and of course will play with the AO, but changes I've done for now dont affect too much to the realistic look of the model.

Other things I have discover redoing the scene is that I dont know which is the correct way of focusing this: jet comes from left to right but is coming a little too from far to near (perphaps im very bad explaining). So I have to animate it XY anz Z because car is going to the jet. Not only the jet is coming, but the car is going too. Should I anmate the camera instead of the Xposition of the jet?

Most important thing is the light. Im going crazy cause If I put the light where it should be, I dont get the proper shadow, or the shadow I expect. Thats because perhaps im wrong about the shadow I should get.

I have down the jet to the road. I think shadows are more or less correct now, but Im not sure if I look to the pic posted by plae57.

If you think they are ok I wil continue redoing.

Image
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Re: Jet integration

Postby Farmfield on 01/15/2016, 3:41 pm

Just a note. As the plane is higher, the shadow will be more diffused, lighter, blurrier, than the car, so the shadow won't match 100% anyway, though the position will be the same of course.

And a little AO will almost always help stuff look more real, no matter the size, occlusion and/or self reflecting in corners happens, always, so if nothing else AO fakes that well enough to trick the eye a bit. :)
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Re: Jet integration

Postby plae57 on 01/15/2016, 6:42 pm

I think it is important to note for realism, you will want to make the size of the plane model in relation to the real world size of the car. So it will have to be WAY bigger than in that last image. Once the size is correct, you can move the model around in 3d space to see where it actually looks right. I am looking forward to seeing your next revision.
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Re: Jet integration

Postby FX-VFX on 01/15/2016, 7:10 pm

Yeah I agree with Plae, the size is way off, and I will look forward to seeing the revision as well.
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Re: Jet integration

Postby dogdayfear on 01/17/2016, 5:46 am

Hi again, here is an update.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qf8jldBzPuE

I have redone the scene almost from zero. Basically I have tried to correct the lighning and in consecuence the shadows. I have had some problems with this because an incorrect parameter of E3D. Jet shadow was correct in some frames of the animation, but suddenly part of the shadow dissapeared, like an straight cut. I went crazy figuring out what happened, but now I think shadow is more or less near real shadows of the scene. What do you think?

I have been playing with AO parameters. And honestly I dont see any relevant changes with this. I havent been able to get more realistic results and I still think that the model (the jet) looks unreal, at least for me.

I have added motion blur as suggested, but I have no clear if it improves the scene. I think motion blur does not add realism, but perphaps my opinion is incorrect.

And finally I have tried to slow down the speed of the jet. Perhaps in conjuntion with the passfly sound it looks (sounds) more sincronized, but I think that the jet should travel faster than now.

About the scale of the jet, I have tried to mantain proportional scale with the car in front of us. It has been hard, because jet should be really big and in consecuence it would go out from the camera view. We should see just some part of the bottom of the jet. Anyway this part of the scene needs more correction or it will be impossible to achieve, I think, because of the distances.

Need to tweak the camera. It was positioned ramdonly first time and it is incorrect. I have bee searching for specifications of my mobile camera and now I know it is 28 mm. So I will try to correct this too. I know it wont give realism to the scene, but I want to correct it and get the camera in the correct position and focus, cause now its bad positioned and oriented.

Finally I have had to help myself again with the plane that casts jet shadow. I have to turn it to match the road. I aatach an image for you to check if its more or less correct.

Image

And for now, thats all. Hope you find it better. I am learning a lot with your comments. I have been discovering a lot of things to consider that I didnt know.

Waiting for your comments, thanks again. :)
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Re: Jet integration

Postby plae57 on 01/17/2016, 6:33 am

I still believe the size of the plane is wrong and that is what is causing most of your shadow problems. Let me ask you a question. If the plane in your last picture fell straight down to the earth, do you think it would hit the car? If it were real, it would be at least 100 yards in front of the car.

I believe you are mistaking scale for distance (or replacing distance with scale) and this will throw off your shadows. You really need to scale that puppy up for realism. Google an image of a man standing next to a 747 tire, then move your model next to the car and scale it up.
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Re: Jet integration

Postby star+circle on 01/17/2016, 7:02 am

Sorry to be picky, but I have two additional notes:

1) The plane would have to fly sideways at the speed of the car to look like that. In real life it would start from further away and would approach the car in z space at the same speed as the car is driving = at the same speed the ground is "approaching" the car.

2) The camera shake seems to have zero effect on the plane, it just flies smoothly (and pretty slowly) across, while the rest of the scene is shaking.

In terms of the size issue, the car driving in front is closer to the camera than the plane with this scale relationship, so the shadow would fall on the ground beyond the car in front at the current view. The road is 5 or 6 meters wide, so the plane (or it's shadow, rather) is currently around 4 meters long.
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Re: Jet integration

Postby dogdayfear on 01/21/2016, 6:59 am

Hi again everybody:

Im trying to correct thing as you suggested. I disconnected a couple of days cause this was driving me crazy. And sure it is. When I get the correct shadows (I think) they are not stable througth the animation. Shadows get cut as shown in picture. I cant solve this for now. :(

I have been trying to correct the scale of the model also, but nothing of this solved the shadows problem.

Hope you can help me with this. Thanks in adavance.

Image
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Re: Jet integration

Postby sinekraft on 01/21/2016, 7:19 am

Shadow mapping only renders up to a certain distance.
You could try to increase the shadow map resolution in the render settings.

If it doesn't work you could try Raytraced shadows but that will give you less control of
the look of the shadows since it's actually traced instead of a map.
They will be pretty sharp and probably not what you want.
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Re: Jet integration

Postby dogdayfear on 01/22/2016, 1:38 pm

sinekraft wrote:Shadow mapping only renders up to a certain distance.
You could try to increase the shadow map resolution in the render settings.

If it doesn't work you could try Raytraced shadows but that will give you less control of
the look of the shadows since it's actually traced instead of a map.
They will be pretty sharp and probably not what you want.



Yes, suppoused that. I have increased the Shadow Map size to maximum, but it does not work. Tried Raytraced Shadows, but I loose control over blur.

I think I will post the last update tomorrow and leave as it is.

Thank you everybody.
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Re: Jet integration

Postby Farmfield on 01/25/2016, 1:35 pm

For a shot like this, you would just fake the shadow. Unless you have an environment to distort your shadow, you have very little to gain and a lot of time to loose by trying to use the rendered shadow when you could so easily fake it.

Doing VFX is in part about choosing your battles, this is an unnecessary fight. ;)
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Re: Jet integration

Postby dogdayfear on 01/25/2016, 2:57 pm

Farmfield wrote:For a shot like this, you would just fake the shadow. Unless you have an environment to distort your shadow, you have very little to gain and a lot of time to loose by trying to use the rendered shadow when you could so easily fake it.

Doing VFX is in part about choosing your battles, this is an unnecessary fight. ;)


Yeah! Sure yyou are right. Just pont me some ideas to start with a fake shadow. Im a completly noob.

I dont give up. Every time I open AE I end with this crazy test. Now with the scale of the jet. I have checked some pics like thisd one:

Image

Now I think I have a correct scale of the jet to start animation:

Image
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Re: Jet integration

Postby Farmfield on 01/25/2016, 3:13 pm

Probably easiest to use a layer in 3D space, rotated to represent the ground perspective.

As for creating the shadow shape...

Complicated fake shadow, a copy of your jet in a precomp with a camera from above, fill with black, add a blur, animate it.

Easy fake shadow, draw a simple mask shaped as the aircraft, blur & animate it. :D
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Re: Jet integration

Postby plae57 on 01/25/2016, 6:23 pm

dogdayfear wrote:Now I think I have a correct scale of the jet to start animation:


Now, leave the camera where it is, and move the plane up and back in z space until it is in the position you want to see it fly by. Your shadow will be in the correct location. (which will be far in front of the car if your original video is an indication of where you want the plane...)

Your original problem was you were confusing scale for distance. This threw your shadows off.
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Re: Jet integration

Postby Farmfield on 01/26/2016, 7:05 am

I would scale the aircraft down a tad, even if it is at the correct scale, it looks to big - remember, VFX isn't about faking realism, this is about faking what we expect reality to look like. :D
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