outside lighting gear?

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Re: outside lighting gear?

Postby ignatius on 01/8/2012, 8:08 pm

RickAllenMedia,

You're a touchy little fella aint ya! Rob gives sound advice. Sometimes his manner eschews diplomacy, but at the very least I'd rather skim through a dozen of his cogent responses than the torrent of shite you keep posting on the message boards.

No you don't have to agree with him and you can disregard his advice, but stop polluting public forums with nonsense. And try to be a little less sensitive...

Peace.
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Re: outside lighting gear?

Postby tedsomeone on 01/8/2012, 8:09 pm

and the debate rages on...

I don't really see a practical difference between grain and noise. Yes they are different but on screen nobody that isn't looking reaaally attentively can tell. Furthermore about the professional workflow, check out the zacuto shootout 2010. In it they talk about shooting at very high iso on a dslr and prepping your workflow for such a thing. I don't intend to shoot all of my video at 6400+ iso but I think for the times I need to its not the end of the world.
I don't intend to light an entire warehouse... it may have come out sounding that way but I really just need the artist and a few hallmark warehouse-ish/urban decay style backgrounds and objects. I'm not so ambitious that I would light something that big properly... few people are.

If it's not clear at this point I'm using a dlsr, which means I'm not getting nearly as much as noise as a camcorder. As for the aperture and shutter speed, I've considered those options. The problem at f1.8 is you have a VERY shallow dof and with the kind of movement the artist is doing it makes focusing very very difficult. This makes me go up to 3-4.0 (ideally 5.0) at which point I need a minimum of 3200 ISO. I basically fluctuate between 30-60 for my shutter speed and the difference is minimal. 50 is generally accepted as the rule of thumb fo 24fps, generally shutter speed is twice the framerate. I have my issues with low shutter speeds but even if I didn't, the difference is really insignificant. I prefer dealing with grain, why? Because grain can be resolved in post if need be, you can't sharpen a slow a video down with something like twixtor at a low shutter speed.

However I would like to say I don't take offence to the negative stuff, I'm pretty used to that kind of harsh love response from people and criticism only makes you stronger, whether its criticising my work or my workflow. The thing I don't appreciate like Rick said is the lack of suggestions. Rick may have been kind of specific with his lighting suggestions and they are mostly set design type things but Rob what you told me was kind of useless. I'm not a professional nor am I working with a corporate budget right now so the gear list you said is obviously out of my range but some alternatives or suggestions would have been appreciated instead. Not a clear shut down of the project...
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Re: outside lighting gear?

Postby RickAllenMedia on 01/8/2012, 9:39 pm

http://www.robneal.co.uk/pages/animation.html#

For anyone on this site who may look up to Rob Neal and actually believe that he is a pro videographer then I will have you firstly take a look at the videos portion of his site and see how poorly they are done. But most importantly, I would like you to notice the XBOX after effects video. Now I'm sure that I don't have to tell you that Rob Neal did not make the graphics for the XBOX and he most assuredly does not have permission to use the Microsoft logo or the XBOX logo in attempting to fraudulently claim to his potential clients that he designed the artwork for the XBOX advertising campaign work for Microsoft. How would you feel if someone claimed that they did your work and used your company logo in fraud to others?


You see there so called pro, it is illegal to use other companies trademarks in your work without permission. As well, it is fraud to claim that you designed artwork for a companies product when you did not. And, I hope that after I report you to Microsoft for your fraudulent implied claims and the illegal use of their trademarked logos in what you claim as your work and on your company site that the actual firm who did design the XBOX logo and designs also sues you as well. I don't know what the charge is for fraudulent implied claims in Europe and the illegal use of company trademarks, but I hope that it is a steep one.

Have a nice lawsuit Rob, and I hope they give you jail time for the fraud that you are committing to your past and potential clients. If anyone here still wants to kid themselves in thinking that Rob Neal is a pro, then all you have to do is watch the XBOX video on his site that he is claiming the rights to use and claiming to potential customers that he designed for Microsoft and the fact that he was not commissioned for the XBOX logo.

(Edit to add) Just contacted Microsoft. They made note to send to their legal. Normally I don't do this Rob, but in your case, I made the exception. It is wrong of you to lie to your potential customers to claim that you designed the XBOX logo and that you did work for Microsoft. I not only know that you are lying, but I contacted Microsoft as well. To any admins reading this... You have let this fraud post 6500 posts on your forum and you never called him out for his own claims. How many people have you enabled him to lie to about the work that he says that he has done and the clients that he says that he has worked for?

You have let him attempt to promote himself here to countless people as a pro who is doing work for clients as large as Microsoft and you never once tried to prove his claims. How many more fraudulent people are on here claiming that they are pros?

(more edit to add) I have also contacted Britons Got Talent since you also claim to have designed thier television intro graphics as well.
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Re: outside lighting gear?

Postby tony on 01/8/2012, 11:58 pm

LOL hahaha I remember that video. Man that was a while a go. Some guy asked if it where possible to make a xbox intro.. or something along those lines. I said you can only build it in a 3D program and Rob called me an idiot. I called him one back and we both decided to make a xbox intro, I would use C4D (it was literally the first time I ever used a 3D program LOL) and he made one entirely in Ae. That's the one he made in Ae LOL hahaha.
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Re: outside lighting gear?

Postby tony on 01/9/2012, 12:14 am

RickAllenMedia wrote:You have let him attempt to promote himself here to countless people as a pro who is doing work for clients as large as Microsoft and you never once tried to prove his claims. How many more fraudulent people are on here claiming that they are pros?


Oh please Rick, you have got to cool down buddy. That's ridiculous --first of all this is a forum; if you claim to work for Willy Wonka himself then so be it, we are all busy ppl, nobody is that interested in looking up weather or not you are telling the truth about your past. It's the internet I think Mods have better things to do with their time.

Secondly, doing work for Microsoft is not going to ring alarms when many of us constantly work for big companies. I think you may have gone a bit overboard with the whole contacting Microsoft LOL. No need to contact Microsoft over trivial forum fights LOL. Just take it easy and try to ignore ppl that may anger you.
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Re: outside lighting gear?

Postby Sasha dal Ponte on 01/9/2012, 1:20 am

Rick, seriously? WTF?! Get some help, man... :=~
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Re: outside lighting gear?

Postby jax_rox on 01/9/2012, 1:51 am

nobody that isn't looking reaaally attentively can tell

I beg to differ. Sure, to the untrained eye, the difference between a properly exposed Arria Alexa and Canon 5D may not be apparent, but it will become apparent once you get up to a 3200 ISO. As well, Canon noise tends to be colourful which makes it obvious that it is digital noise (this is also covered in that same shootout). If you absolutely have to go to ISO 3200 or 6400, then at least you'll g et the shot no matter hwo crappy it looks, but not lighting and just bumping the ISO is lazy cinematography and it will show in the results that will be 'good enough' and 'not the end of the world' rather than awesome.

I don't intend to light an entire warehouse... I really just need the artist and a few hallmark warehouse-ish/urban decay style backgrounds and objects.

Well you're going to have to light those urban decay background and objects aren't you? Otherwise you won't see them. In the example videos you posted, the background is lit. Even in your one where you say you used an on-camera LED light, the background still has street lights etc in it. In a warehouse, there's no street lights or anything. You'll have to light anything in the background yourself, otherwise it will be a head on a black background.

some alternatives or suggestions would have been appreciated instead. Not a clear shut down of the project

Sure, but we're not here to make the project for you. Your question was how do I achieve this? If you are then told you cannot, it's up to you to go 'hmm i wonder how I can achieve it then,' not up to us to completely take over your project and give you all the ideas for it.


Now I'm sure that I don't have to tell you that Rob Neal did not make the graphics for the XBOX and he most assuredly does not have permission to use the Microsoft logo or the XBOX logo in attempting to fraudulently claim to his potential clients that he designed the artwork for the XBOX advertising campaign work for Microsoft.

LOL mate, you are obviously a bit touchy hey?
If you actually go to his vimeo site, here's the exact description (copy and pasted):
A rough demo made in Adobe After Effects of a "squishy orb" featured in Microsoft's ident.
Yup, he's definitely claiming that he made the graphics for XBOX..... :roll:
As well, who are you to say he didn't? Just because your feelings are hurt, doesn't mean that you are right. He may have in fact made the graphics. Either way, he's clearly stated he didn't, so he's hardly 'fraudulently claim[ing] to his potential clients that he designed the artwork for the XBOX advertising campaign work for Microsoft.'

Piece of advice: if you want to be successful in this industry, toughen up. You've admitted in a seperate topic that you are only starting out. If that's the case, great. Just don't act like you know everything and have been in the industry for 10 years, especially when it's obvious you haven't. This industry steps on people who don't have thick skins. So take it in your stride, and start listening to other people - who knows, you might learn something. At the moment, you're just another one of those people who has been in this industry not even 5 mnutes and already think you know everything. Here's the thing - you never know everything there is to know about the film industry, and the sooner you learn that, the sooner you'll start learning more and you'll actually start to get some work.
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Re: outside lighting gear?

Postby tony on 01/9/2012, 2:00 am

jax_rox wrote:This industry steps on people who don't have thick skins


+1
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Re: outside lighting gear?

Postby ignatius on 01/9/2012, 5:04 am

Rick, you've gone insane bud. I've changed my mind, can you keep posting this...er...tremendously useful stuff? It's comedy gold! I may take your character to Edinburgh Fringe, but I need assurances that you wont sue me for identity theft?
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Re: outside lighting gear?

Postby nobby1986 on 01/9/2012, 5:15 am

ignatius wrote:Rick, you've gone insane bud. I've changed my mind, can you keep posting this...er...tremendously useful stuff? It's comedy gold! I may take your character to Edinburgh Fringe, but I need assurances that you wont sue me for identity theft?


Nicely done :lol:
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Re: outside lighting gear?

Postby tedsomeone on 01/9/2012, 7:53 am

Jax:
Yes the noise is in color, but that only happens at 6400 ISO. As far as I'm aware, and have read in numerous places about the 5D, 3200 is the limit you can get away with for good footage without bad noise. If you want to call the 'lazy' that's fine, it's your opinion, I would preffer to call it 'use-what-you-have' cinematography.. I obviously tend to stay away from night shoots having the small lighting arsenal I do and use reflectors in daytime when needed. There's not much I can do besides invest thousands in lights and I was asking this forum not to fix my problem or do my project for me but give some suggestions. I know that if I get a full trailer of lights and some generators I can light a warehouse.. or literally any scene I can imagine, it wasn't my objective to get that answer here, I managed to come to that conclusion by myself. My point in this thread was to get some alternative methods for shooting such a scene. I don't aim to look for a full step-by-step solutions, just some tips and advice from some of your run-and-gun days.

I don't think Rick meant to insult Rob, its just Rob might come off a little arrogant sometimes.

I'm not sure who the thick skin comment was directed towards but I'm not hurt or annoyed by the posts I'm just arguing my opinion based on the knowledge and experience I have. I don't mean to offend anyone with my posts and I don't take it to heart if you guys disagree with me and say I'm doing it wrong because that's just how it is in the industry, in any artistic industry...

The one thing I can say from personal experience is that the people, including Rob Neal, that post in this forum, and even people who work in the industry in real life are not always right. The posts on software and AE are more right than wrong but when it comes to gear and setups I've had different opinions than people here and in my shoots I've been proven rights by my results. Sometimes I think it's easy to get lost in the equipment and the technical standards, forgetting the other aspects of this field like creativity and problem solving. When I said it's not the end of the world and good enough I meant good enough to be presentable, not an "it will do" kind of demeanour. Using the above method (shooting at high ISO) has produced some terrible results and I have just thrown that footage away, but I don't think it should be completely excluded just because it's considered "lazy cinematography".

Again, I am aware I'm not big in the industry and I don't pretend to be. The things I'm talking about are from my personal experience, my results, and the feedback I've gotten from clients and people who I've worked with or are friends with who do the same kind of work.
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Re: outside lighting gear?

Postby jax_rox on 01/9/2012, 8:17 am

Those final comments were directed at Rick more than you, Ted. I was perhaps a little astounded at the authority with which he tries to speak, though admits he's only starting out. Then gets all hot-headed about Rob supposedly 'ripping off' Microsoft...

Anyway:
I suppose at the end of the day, it depends on your deliverables. If you're projecting it on a big screen, that noise is going to be 100x more noticeable than on a 13" laptop on YouTube.
Sure, if all you have is one or two lights, then you're going to have to go with what you have. I've always, however, been a fan of finding a better way of doing something than going with something that will be good enough. If I don't have the lights to light a warehouse, I'd find somewhere else. 'Urban decay' doesn't dictate that it has to be a warehouse at all, so it could probably be even better to have some nice set dressing done anywhere else, whether a street or a different room that you do have the ability to light.
I call it lazy cinematography because DSLR shooters seem to think they can 'get away with' things that you just can't if you want to be taken seriously as a cinematographer. Try shooting on a Red or Alexa which have a native ISO of 800. Now, 800 is high but it's no 3200... The highest film speed is 500, even less than 800. Try shooting that warehouse scene at 800 or 500 ISO. You're going to need some lights even at T1.3 on a Master Prime. There's a certain discipline of cinematography that is just not learnt in this current DSLR age because you can just bump it to 3200 ISO and oh well, its not that bad really. If that is really the only way you can get that shot (and I'd probably only accept this excuse if it were a documentary), but if the only possible way to get a certain shot was to bump the ISO right up, I might accept it, but there's usually another way, especially in drama narrative...
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Re: outside lighting gear?

Postby RickAllenMedia on 01/9/2012, 11:43 am

I feel Great! (Pats self on back). You see Ted, it only took me 5 minuets, as someone else said, to find out how many hacks and frauds are on this forum claiming to the noobs that they are pros. It is nothing new.

If you notice, they were putting you down for your project the moment that you posted it. They slammed you long before I ever said anything in your thread. Why? Obviously it is because they have little to no actual experience in this field. This is why none of them offered any ideas that as you and I both know (and anyone who has ever even tried to do this before knows) that it is entirely doable to light sets with fire, sparklers, flashlights and whatnot. I even threw out the hint that Rambo First blood was lit with Coleman Lanterns, but the frauds wouldn’t go there because they can't. Instead, in order to keep up their false “Pro” front to the all the noobs, they just slammed you for even trying or posting about your possible actual project problems.

Look though their posts? When was the last time they posted their own work? Big clue huh. So, just be glad that this field is wide open to anyone who is actually trying to learn to do this and who is actually doing projects for others. This field is wide open and people like you and I will do great. Unfortunatly, just may need to ask your serious questions elsewhere if you want true answers. If I find a place, I'll let you know. So, you will not see me on the forums much anymore (because I have my own work to do too) but don't let these frauds get to you. Can't wait to see your next work and good job on the last video that you did.

Take care and see you around the forum...some, lol.
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Re: outside lighting gear?

Postby ignatius on 01/9/2012, 12:02 pm

Seriously guys and gals, be nice to Rick because he's threatening to leave the forum and I haven't finished my sitcom "Sue Me Rick!". Never mind, people like Rick are ten a penny.

Good luck to you Rick, and keep putting up those great photos on photobucket. Truly inspirational, where did you get the idea to photograph flowers?
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Re: outside lighting gear?

Postby XeroedEffects on 01/9/2012, 12:07 pm

Oh dear, this has turned into a shit fight hasn't it? Why don't we all just calm down a little. I'm sure all of your suggestions have been helpful in some way or another. Whether they work or not, you learn for your next film shoot. Perhaps it would be better to just accept one another's ideas and move on, instead of debating whether or not a particular idea is brilliant or idiotic.

I would have preferred to stay out of this, but I hate to see people wasting time, when it could be used to actually help the person posing the question.

My two cents worth.

To the initial poster: I guess it all bubbles down to how serious you are about the film you are shooting. By no means am I a professional, I do everything for fun. But what I do know, is that the more effort you're willing to put into anything, the more it'll cost; whether that be time, experience, or money.
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Re: outside lighting gear?

Postby RickAllenMedia on 01/9/2012, 12:29 pm

I never said I was leaving. Damn you people need to learn to read. I said I have more important thing to do that waste time on you.
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Re: outside lighting gear?

Postby tedsomeone on 01/9/2012, 6:01 pm

XeroedEffects wrote:the more effort you're willing to put into anything, the more it'll cost; whether that be time, experience, or money.


the more you spend the more it will cost? ...the more you spend the quicker the project, that's a universal rule. No offence but that rule is bs. Things that are cheaply done take more time (if you want them to look like they're done well). Anyway that aside, this project has been scrapped like I said.

I'm not posting here anymore. I respect what everyone has said but Rick is the only one that has told me anything useful and now this is just a pointless fight I don't care to be a part of. Take care, and thank you for your inputs.
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Re: outside lighting gear?

Postby jax_rox on 01/9/2012, 6:06 pm

I think Rick's just trolling now..
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Re: outside lighting gear?

Postby bwoogie on 01/9/2012, 7:15 pm

Thanks for the good read guys.. Enjoyed it.
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