How would you shoot this? (360 rotation)

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Re: How would you shoot this? (360 rotation)

Postby tony on 10/27/2011, 4:30 pm

dreamless113 wrote:@tony - Trust me, I'm all about simple.

But how do you avoid the model's eyes from tracking? I tried to direct her to "un-focus" her eyes, and not stare at anything in particular. But she couldn't do it.

I was left with a shot where her eyes would suddenly jerk as she was being spun around.


It's simple, you spin her very slowly, then you speed ramp in post -also someone can run around her at the same speed and you can have her track them with her eyes. Although whenever we have shot this we spin them slowly and we never run into problems. Just spin her slowly
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Re: How would you shoot this? (360 rotation)

Postby dreamless113 on 10/27/2011, 5:09 pm

Wateva she is standing on thats making her spin, attach a pole/tripod or what ever to that so she has something to focus on as she spins. simplo


Then the attached pole would pass in front of the camera. Which is bad. Even if it was long enough to go over and behind the camera's position (some 9 foot away) you'd still have to clip it out when she's facing away from the camera somehow.

also someone can run around her at the same speed and you can have her track them with her eyes.


That's a great idea, I might try that. But that would mean having another assistant on set besides myself (DP) and an assistant to spin her (unless I invest in building a motorized rig like you showed)
Last edited by dreamless113 on 10/27/2011, 6:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: How would you shoot this? (360 rotation)

Postby dreamless113 on 10/27/2011, 5:21 pm

@tony: Check out what someone posted on your blog.

It doesn’t look like a green screen shot to me. I was on a recent film shoot where the DP mounted an Arri Alexa to a motorized, trackless dolly. The wheels were angled so that the camera made a continuous sweep around the subject. The softbox lights were also mounted to the dolly to give consistent lighting as the camera tracked around the subject. The catch lights tracked with the camera, not the subject. It looks like they mounted a kicker below the camera in this video.


This was kinda my idea as well.
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Re: How would you shoot this? (360 rotation)

Postby tony on 10/27/2011, 10:16 pm

dreamless113 wrote:@tony: Check out what someone posted on your blog.


What blog are you talking about?

Also I don't know who wrote that but I disagree with that. This was definitively green 110% for various reasons.

1. You need a green screen to put the background and to do the effect of going from day to night.
2. This is a cheap-o commercial, I have worked on some commercials and trust me they would not spend money on a motorized trackless dolly.
3. I have worked on the exact same effect before with a professional DP, that's how it's done, on a giant
lazy-susan
4. Look at the glare and sheen on her hair. As she moves around the glare moves from top to bottom of her hair. Which means something is moving. If the lights are stationary and so is she and it's only the camera moving that would not happen. Which means she is turning so that the light catches different parts of her hair. Get me? So something is moving and it's not the camera.


Just go and try it. place them on a giant spiny thing and move them slowly, then in post you can zoom in and out and time remap the footage also.
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Re: How would you shoot this? (360 rotation)

Postby tony on 10/27/2011, 10:19 pm

As for lighting its def softboxes for key and fill. both up high around nose height, they are big ones too, you can tell from the sheen on her hair. IDK about a kicker, perhaps, but this is real flat diffused lighting so that you can go from day to night in post with out having to it look awkward.
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Re: How would you shoot this? (360 rotation)

Postby Rob Neal on 10/28/2011, 1:02 am

tony wrote:Look at the glare and sheen on her hair. As she moves around the glare moves from top to bottom of her hair. Which means something is moving. If the lights are stationary and so is she and it's only the camera moving that would not happen. Which means she is turning so that the light catches different parts of her hair. Get me? So something is moving and it's not the camera.

That is why my system is better. The lights and model remain static and it's the camera that moves, which is the way it should be. It also stops the model from trying to refocus their eyes, which is often unavoidable when you are being spun around.
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Re: How would you shoot this? (360 rotation)

Postby tony on 10/28/2011, 2:56 am

Rob Neal wrote:That is why my system is better. The lights and model remain static and it's the camera that moves, which is the way it should be. It also stops the model from trying to refocus their eyes, which is often unavoidable when you are being spun around.


Oh im not saying the sheen moving is a bad thing. It's all about what you feel you need. If you're looking for a "matrix" effect where everything is static then yeah your system would be better. But I think for this shot since the background image is moving and the shot is dynamically going from day to night the movement of the sheen across the hair looks cool and could act as a visual transition.

Different techniques for different results I think. :D
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Re: How would you shoot this? (360 rotation)

Postby dreamless113 on 10/28/2011, 5:11 am

You need a green screen to put the background and to do the effect of going from day to night.


1. I already know it's blue or green screened.

This is a cheap-o commercial, I have worked on some commercials and trust me they would not spend money on a motorized trackless dolly.


2. But it's super cheap (even cheaper than building a motorized lazy suzan capable of supporting a human) to just mount some wheels on a piece of wood and angle the wheels in the direction/curvature you want. Then just push the thing around your model (with lights + camera ontop).

I have worked on the exact same effect before with a professional DP, that's how it's done, on a giant lazy-susan


3. Not doubting your experience or that this would be a really good solution. But this is a close-up shot, so a lot of focus on the eyes. I have to ensure no eye-jerky, no wobbling of the body/head, and prevent it from being off center. How tight were your shots?

If the lights are stationary and so is she and it's only the camera moving that would not happen. Which means she is turning so that the light catches different parts of her hair.


4. Well the concept was A) Move her or B) Move the camera + lights. I knew I wanted her to move in relation to the light.
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Re: How would you shoot this? (360 rotation)

Postby tony on 10/28/2011, 12:27 pm

dreamless113 wrote:2. But it's super cheap (even cheaper than building a motorized lazy suzan capable of supporting a human) to just mount some wheels on a piece of wood and angle the wheels in the direction/curvature you want. Then just push the thing around your model (with lights + camera ontop).


I doubt that, you won't get a smooth roll. You need to put everything on a track. However a lazy susan by comparison has no tracks. It's just two round pieces of wood, connected by a small pipe through some bearings. That's it It's incredibly easy to build and cheap.

dreamless113 wrote:3. Not doubting your experience or that this would be a really good solution. But this is a close-up shot, so a lot of focus on the eyes. I have to ensure no eye-jerky, no wobbling of the body/head, and prevent it from being off center. How tight were your shots?


Actually it's not a close up shot. You shoot wide and with the camera sideways so you get her whole upper body in the frame. Then everything else is done in post like the zoom in. You are basically recording an element. We've done it, it's easy trust me. Just start experimenting and you will see that things are much simpler than you think.
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Re: How would you shoot this? (360 rotation)

Postby dreamless113 on 10/28/2011, 3:47 pm

Why wouldn't it be a smooth roll? I'm not shooting on a parking lot, I'll be in a studio.

Interesting thought and good advice about shooting portrait instead of landscape.

I'm not really interested in the zoom-in aspect, just the smooth rotation.
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Re: How would you shoot this? (360 rotation)

Postby tony on 10/28/2011, 9:36 pm

Well unless it's on a track it won't roll smoothly. and by smoothly i mean at minimum a perfect circle. If you want a perfect circular turn use a lazy susan or some tracks. Wheels by them selfs won't do the trick.
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Re: How would you shoot this? (360 rotation)

Postby dreamless113 on 10/29/2011, 5:23 am

Why not?

If you lock down the angle of the wheels, it will travel in a perfect circle.
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Re: How would you shoot this? (360 rotation)

Postby tony on 10/29/2011, 9:28 am

You can't, you need tracks for a smooth perfect dolly around. first off you need big wheel or soft ones like of a dolly. If yoru thinking of small skate wheels won't work. secondly when you turn in a circle the inner wheel turns faster than the outer wheel (reason why cars have differentials at the back) So the inner wheel always skips and bumps. On a track these things are sort of evened out.
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Re: How would you shoot this? (360 rotation)

Postby dreamless113 on 10/29/2011, 9:57 am

@tony: the inner wheel / outer wheel thing is only a problem if both wheels are connected by an axle.

I went and bought 4 movers dolly wheels, made with nice soft rubber, about 4 inch diameters. I will mount them to a wooden platform and lock down their angle.

I don't see any reason it won't be smooth and a perfect circle.
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Re: How would you shoot this? (360 rotation)

Postby Timber_Wolf_2 on 10/31/2011, 1:45 pm

The perfect circle isn't impossible. Difficult to achieve a perfect center on which to place your talent, but the circle itself is not impossible.

The smooth part is very close to impossible. Tracks and their wheels are manufactured to be smooth as glass, well-lubricated, and so on. Dolly wheels, though built to be strong, are not built to have perfect motion. Even on a studio floor, you will have some shake and wiggle using wheels systems not manufactured for that purpose.
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Re: How would you shoot this? (360 rotation)

Postby dreamless113 on 10/31/2011, 5:02 pm

True timberwolf, I'll have to be careful and shoot a lot of takes to be on the safe side.

I just think the lazy-susan idea is going to be a problem with eyes.

But to be fair to Tony's idea, it does look a lot easier. I really don't want to build a rig that can handle lights + camera and try to move it around the model. It will be cumbersome.
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Re: How would you shoot this? (360 rotation)

Postby tony on 10/31/2011, 5:07 pm

dreamless113 wrote:True timberwolf, I'll have to be careful and shoot a lot of takes to be on the safe side.

I just think the lazy-susan idea is going to be a problem with eyes.

But to be fair to Tony's idea, I really don't want to build a rig that can handle lights + camera and try to move it around the model. It will be cumbersome.


It's not dude the eyes tracking is not a problem at all. You are supposed to turn the model very slowly and speed it up in post, that's how it's done. I know you don't want to believe me, but it does work. We also set a big fan to the side of her so that her hair would flow a bit and add to the realism. It's all trickery dude. it's all post.
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Re: How would you shoot this? (360 rotation)

Postby dreamless113 on 10/31/2011, 5:13 pm

But why would I want to speed it up in post? I mean that commercial I posted was probably shot in 60fps and slowed down in post.

This is a proof of concept I shot back in May. Had the model available from another shoot, so I tried this out. Just sat her in an office chair.

http://www.evanburke.com/MVI_1809.MOV (75mb Quicktime)

You can see the issues with the eyes tracking.
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Re: How would you shoot this? (360 rotation)

Postby dreamless113 on 10/31/2011, 5:20 pm

Tony I think your idea about having someone walk around for her to 'track' with her eyes is genius.

If I could build the motorized lazy susan, then I think that would actually cover all my bases.
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